[Compcomm] [Fwd: Re: The Next Step]

Tue Apr 24 08:28:43 EDT 2007

For $160 if I remember correctly, vB is definitely not worth it.
phpBB3 isn't gold yet, so of course it's not going to have a release
immediately, but I haven't heard of any security vulnerabilities yet
either.

And of course vB can afford to put out a fix immediately, their
getting paid to! phpBB usually does within a day or so if it's major.
So phpBB is definitely not slow in development.

And really, you're going to base the decision based on AJAX stuff? I
gurantee you phpBB3 will have a mod for it shortly after it's
released. As far as the plugin system for vB, while it might be nice,
it still requires manual edits. So it's not _much_ better than phpBB3.

And upgrading phpBB3 is quite simple. They release code changes, that
you manually apply if you have mods. So it makes editing a modded
forum easily. I've got enough experience with it, having modded forums
with 200+ mods before, all working 100%.

And if I'm correct, there have been a few people who stated they've
seen an improvement when using phpBB3 over vB in terms of performance,
and vB is a known resource hog anyways.

And extensibility, that's definitely a winner for phpBB 2 and 3.
They're both easily modded. If you don't believe me, go look at
Categories Hierarchy. It basically rewrote a lot of phpBB2's code
because it wasn't at it's best, yet it's a mod. I highly doubt you can
do that in a vB "plugin".

"reported posts, built-in warnings & infractions system" Well, sorry
to burst your bubble, but phpBB3 has this also.

And for those who administrate the boards, phpBB3's permission and
overall ACP is just a better system. It's a lot less confusing, and a
lot better organized.

On 4/24/07, Stephen Moore <delfick755 at gmail.com> wrote:
> i can't wait till someone somehow manages to argue against that (as always
> happens).....
>
> to me, that sounds like a decent reason :D
>
> btw, how much does vbulletin cost ??
>
>
>  On 4/24/07, Matthew Swaringen <xanas3712 at matrixcentral.net> wrote:
> >
> > Since we are back on the argument about vbulletin again I found the
> > argument made for it by will he was referring to.  I didn't see any
> > other extensive argumentation besides the back and forths over this one.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 04:26 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > What is the exact reason why we don't use phpBB3? It is free and it is
> > > open-source ... I tried it and I can't see a reason for not using it. I
> > > find it quite ironic to use commercial software for an open-source
> > > project's site and have no good feeling about that ... it's kind of
> > > immoral.
> >
> > Morality is not, and should not, be a factor in the equation for two
> > reasons:
> >
> > 1) Morality is _very, very_ subjective (by nature) and no person's
> > morality is the same as another's. Deciding forum software based upon
> > morality will lead to nothing more than disagreements: as such the forum
> > software should be decided by software's merit.
> >
> > 2) There is nothing immoral or amoral with proprietary software. There
> > are companies that may be immoral with their software, yes, but that is
> > as a result of the company's policies.
> >
> > When it comes to code quality, features, expandability, maintenance,
> > upkeep, security, and performance, vBulletin is the simply the best
> > software available.
> >
> > This of course brings into play the whole argument that "Open Source is
> > actively developed, so security must not be an issue, right?" Well, no.
> > While it's good in theory, and if development is constant, the PHPBB3
> > development is not nearly as active as other projects (like Firefox for
> > example) who can make sure a patch for a security flaw is out and being
> > actively distributed within say 24 hours of finding the flaw. As far as
> > security goes, vBulletin has in impeccable record of not only being more
> > secure to begin with, but also releasing patches ASAP.
> >
> > The biggest downfall of PHPBB is not even that, however. The biggest
> > flaw, is without a doubt, the pure inability to maintain and keep PHPBB
> > up-to-date and secure without hours upon hours of manual hacking on the
> > source code. This is a wasted effort.
> >
> > vBulletin uses a system called Products and Plugins. What these are, in
> > lay-men terms, are a series of methods by which scripts/plugins can use
> > hooks to inject or modify code that renders the page without manually
> > editing the source. What this achieves is not only a lot of saved effort
> > in expanding the features of the forum, but also make maintainability an
> > easy task.
> >
> > When it comes to vBulletin upgrades, you won't ever need to hack the
> > source. The most difficult it becomes is possibly doing a few minor
> > patching to the theme and, if needed, any upgrades to installed plugins
> > or products. One can fully upgrade their vBulletin installation in 20
> > minutes handily.
> >
> > However, with PHPBB, you will be hand-editing the source no matter what.
> > You either take the current source and just manually apply the diff for
> > every file - most of the time without any exterior aid because if you've
> > applied any hack to the code, chances are the changes won't be _exactly_
> > correct. The other route, is to install the new version, and then hope
> > that you can reapply all your old hacks again. As the forum grows, the
> > complications in upgrading just get worse and worse and more
> > time-consuming.
> >
> > In regards to features, vBulletin offers much that PHPBB cannot even
> > attempt to match. AJAX Quick Reply, Multi-Quote, AJAX thread/post
> > editing, reported posts, built-in warnings & infractions system,
> > plugins, products, users viewing the thread, similar threads, etc etc.
> > The list literally goes on and on. These features all combine to make a
> > better user experience.
> >
> > But above all else, common sense enters the scene. Many corporations and
> > extremely large websites (see: Something Awful and MTGSalvation and
> > Ubuntu Forums) use vBulletin rather than PHPBB or other pay-for
> > alternatives. There's a _reason_ for this. vBulletin simply is the best
> > software for any large, growing community. It's a matter of nothing more
> > than "you get what you pay for".
> >
> >         Aside: The first person to mention Microsoft is getting flamed.
> >                The reason? It's not applicable here. Microsoft has
> >                essentially had a monopoly for a long while. In contrast,
> >                the forum software business has plenty of competition and
> >                has for a long while.
> >
> >
> > So what justifies all this added stuff? The community.
> >
> > The Beryl forum was one of the most-quickly-growing forums on the net.
> > It achieved 30,000+ posts in... 6 months? Mind, it's not a Something
> > Awful-level of posting, but it's far more than many forums even see in
> > four times that amount of time.
> >
> > The Compiz community was fairly active and steadily growing to begin
> > with. Now we've literally just poured the Beryl community in with the
> > mix. This expansion is rapid and _will_ continue. As the merge finishes
> > and development goes into full swing, and as more distributions include
> > Compiz by default, the Compiz forum stands to continue this trend of
> > expanding generally rapidly.
> >
> > With this trend being nothing more than inevitable, we need a software
> > that is:
> >
> > 1) Maintainable
> > 2) Expandable
> > 3) Secure
> >
> > vBulletin sufficiently provides all three and more. PHPBB3 simply does
> > not and will not be able to for what appears to be a long time. PHPBB is
> > a good project, make no mistake. However, it is suited to small forums
> > that see little to moderate activity. It is not suited in the least to a
> > growing community.
> >
> > The only reasonable choice here _is_ vBulletin.
> >
> > > Isn't it more open-source-like to help improving pphBB and support the
> > > phpBB-project - instead of supporting some commercial company?? If
> > > everyone would think like that, there would be no open-source at all ...
> >
> > Unless our community is filled with about 30 PHP and SQL experts who can
> > code on PHPBB3 full-time for the next 90 days, there is no way that
> > PHPBB3 could possibly support the current and future needs of the
> > community. ;)
> >
> >
> > Just as a matter of note, I've actively used PHPBB2, PHPBB3, vBulletin,
> > IPB, MyBB, and other forum softwares, and currently am the maintainer of
> > two separate forums using vBulletin.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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-- 
Alex Heck - nesl247