[Compcomm] [Fwd: Re: The Next Step]

[Will Farrington]

On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 08:28 -0400, nesl247 wrote:
> For $160 if I remember correctly, vB is definitely not worth it.
> phpBB3 isn't gold yet, so of course it's not going to have a release
> immediately, but I haven't heard of any security vulnerabilities yet
> either.

> And of course vB can afford to put out a fix immediately, their
> getting paid to! phpBB usually does within a day or so if it's major.
> So phpBB is definitely not slow in development.
> 
phpBB3 doesn't always get security patches in 24 hours. Or even 48
hours. Or even 72 hours.

Furthermore, anyone who's followed development of phpBB3, which is STILL
less fully-featured than vBulletin 3.5.x (which was released well over a
year and a half ago), can attest to the pace of development in the phpBB
project.

They still don't even have simple things like AJAX Quick Reply or Quick
Edit included.

> And really, you're going to base the decision based on AJAX stuff?

Some of those are important features that severely increase usability.
So, yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't tell David he should ship Compiz sans the Move
plugin, now would I?

> I
> gurantee you phpBB3 will have a mod for it shortly after it's
> released.

Yes, because an infinitely less maintainable and more complicated forum
that will need near constant attention is a great start!

> As far as the plugin system for vB, while it might be nice,
> it still requires manual edits.

There are all of a handful of plugins that will require one to edit the
source code (because hooks are not yet implemented for the files in
question). Every other plugin either has a simple one-click-installation
that is _guaranteed_ to work, or, a few template changes need made
(vBulletin stores templates in the database, so it's not hacking on the
source).

Installing any plugin in vB, especially large ones (for example the
iTrader selling/buying/trading rating system), is far quicker, easier,
and more easily-maintained.

> So it's not _much_ better than phpBB3.

Um, yeah, it is. =)

> And upgrading phpBB3 is quite simple. They release code changes, that
> you manually apply if you have mods.

As opposed to simply copying the new files over the existing ones and
running an upgrade script.

Let's see... hours of hacking files on the server, OR, a simple upload
and a few clicks.

Well - gee, I just _can't_ decide which one I'd prefer!

> So it makes editing a modded
> forum easily.

Easy for a coder, yeah. Still a huge, massive, monstrous waste of
valuable time: I assume you, and RYX, and everyone else has a life just
like me. I can't spend 8 or 12 hours on random maintenance chores for
the forum. I've got homework, various bands, and time with my friends
that need time too.

> I've got enough experience with it, having modded forums
> with 200+ mods before, all working 100%.

As have I. And you know as well as I do that the time investment is
ridiculously, and needlessly, large.

> And if I'm correct, there have been a few people who stated they've
> seen an improvement when using phpBB3 over vB in terms of performance,
> and vB is a known resource hog anyways.

When you cut out the useful AJAX features, of course loading time will
improve. Javascript doesn't exactly load instantly.

> And extensibility, that's definitely a winner for phpBB 2 and 3.
> They're both easily modded.

You're right - one-click-installation and _maybe_ a minute editing a
template is pretty difficult compared to manually editing a variety of
the source files. So glad you corrected me on that! *roll eyes*

> If you don't believe me, go look at
> Categories Hierarchy. It basically rewrote a lot of phpBB2's code
> because it wasn't at it's best, yet it's a mod. I highly doubt you can
> do that in a vB "plugin".

Well vBulletin doesn't require an _extremely_ extensive hack at the
source (just look at the diff between it and vanilla phpBB to see what I
mean - it's a fuckin huge hack) to implement something as simple as
subforums: it prefers to have them part of the package from the get-go.


> "reported posts, built-in warnings & infractions system" Well, sorry
> to burst your bubble, but phpBB3 has this also.

Not anywhere near as usable or strong. I'm not going to go off on a
tangent here, but I'm sure if you looked around the vB forums, there's a
post detailing some of the many features vB's Warnings and Infractions
system has to offer that just make it absolutely amazing.

> And for those who administrate the boards, phpBB3's permission and
> overall ACP is just a better system. It's a lot less confusing, and a
> lot better organized.

I disagree. phpBB3 sets _every_ single thing differently.

vBulletin, on the other hand, uses a very scalar system that's based on
the concept of inheritance from the parent forum or category which is a
lot more maintainable, and if thought about for a few seconds, actually
makes a lot more sense. The cases where it would be a nuisance are
minimal at best (How often would you _actually_ want a person to be a
moderator of a given forum but not one of its subforums? Subforums are
usually derivatives of the parent forum, so isn't the moderator in this
hypothetical situation already dealing with the same topic range of
posts?)