[Compcomm] [Fwd: Re: The Next Step]

Tue Apr 24 22:42:14 EDT 2007

Your comparison is more than a bit of exaggeration.  The move plugin 
allows a basic function that is present in every window manager from 
ages ago.  AJAX Quick reply is a feature that many people don't even 
care about right now.  It's more like the tile plugin.   I find the tile 
plugin very useful, but I wouldn't not use a WM based solely on lacking 
this one feature.  And I wouldn't buy a WM for the one feature either if 
there was a free WM available, that might eventually have similar or 
passable features.

Again, I'd be using windows in cases like this if I always went for what 
has more features.  If you combine it with the OS software available for 
it you'd be hard pressed to convince most people that linux offers more 
features for them.   Linux might offer more features to developers or 
server admins, but by and large the reason that people use linux is 
because they support it's goals more than those of microsoft.

I'm not saying vbulletin is made by a company like microsoft, but the 
mindset against proprietary software in general is for good reason.  
It's not evil, but it is "less than ideal" IMO.  If more people didn't 
use vbulletin and switched to supporting phpbb3 with the same dollars 
and/or time they are now putting towards vbulletin I wonder where we'd 
be at now. 

Will Farrington wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 08:28 -0400, nesl247 wrote:
>   
>> For $160 if I remember correctly, vB is definitely not worth it.
>> phpBB3 isn't gold yet, so of course it's not going to have a release
>> immediately, but I haven't heard of any security vulnerabilities yet
>> either.
>>     
>
>   
>> And of course vB can afford to put out a fix immediately, their
>> getting paid to! phpBB usually does within a day or so if it's major.
>> So phpBB is definitely not slow in development.
>>
>>     
> phpBB3 doesn't always get security patches in 24 hours. Or even 48
> hours. Or even 72 hours.
>
> Furthermore, anyone who's followed development of phpBB3, which is STILL
> less fully-featured than vBulletin 3.5.x (which was released well over a
> year and a half ago), can attest to the pace of development in the phpBB
> project.
>
> They still don't even have simple things like AJAX Quick Reply or Quick
> Edit included.
>
>   
>> And really, you're going to base the decision based on AJAX stuff?
>>     
>
> Some of those are important features that severely increase usability.
> So, yeah.
>
> I mean, I wouldn't tell David he should ship Compiz sans the Move
> plugin, now would I?
>
>   
>> I
>> gurantee you phpBB3 will have a mod for it shortly after it's
>> released.
>>     
>
> Yes, because an infinitely less maintainable and more complicated forum
> that will need near constant attention is a great start!
>
>   
>> As far as the plugin system for vB, while it might be nice,
>> it still requires manual edits.
>>     
>
> There are all of a handful of plugins that will require one to edit the
> source code (because hooks are not yet implemented for the files in
> question). Every other plugin either has a simple one-click-installation
> that is _guaranteed_ to work, or, a few template changes need made
> (vBulletin stores templates in the database, so it's not hacking on the
> source).
>
> Installing any plugin in vB, especially large ones (for example the
> iTrader selling/buying/trading rating system), is far quicker, easier,
> and more easily-maintained.
>
>   
>> So it's not _much_ better than phpBB3.
>>     
>
> Um, yeah, it is. =)
>
>   
>> And upgrading phpBB3 is quite simple. They release code changes, that
>> you manually apply if you have mods.
>>     
>
> As opposed to simply copying the new files over the existing ones and
> running an upgrade script.
>
> Let's see... hours of hacking files on the server, OR, a simple upload
> and a few clicks.
>
> Well - gee, I just _can't_ decide which one I'd prefer!
>
>   
>> So it makes editing a modded
>> forum easily.
>>     
>
> Easy for a coder, yeah. Still a huge, massive, monstrous waste of
> valuable time: I assume you, and RYX, and everyone else has a life just
> like me. I can't spend 8 or 12 hours on random maintenance chores for
> the forum. I've got homework, various bands, and time with my friends
> that need time too.
>
>   
>> I've got enough experience with it, having modded forums
>> with 200+ mods before, all working 100%.
>>     
>
> As have I. And you know as well as I do that the time investment is
> ridiculously, and needlessly, large.
>
>   
>> And if I'm correct, there have been a few people who stated they've
>> seen an improvement when using phpBB3 over vB in terms of performance,
>> and vB is a known resource hog anyways.
>>     
>
> When you cut out the useful AJAX features, of course loading time will
> improve. Javascript doesn't exactly load instantly.
>
>   
>> And extensibility, that's definitely a winner for phpBB 2 and 3.
>> They're both easily modded.
>>     
>
> You're right - one-click-installation and _maybe_ a minute editing a
> template is pretty difficult compared to manually editing a variety of
> the source files. So glad you corrected me on that! *roll eyes*
>
>   
>> If you don't believe me, go look at
>> Categories Hierarchy. It basically rewrote a lot of phpBB2's code
>> because it wasn't at it's best, yet it's a mod. I highly doubt you can
>> do that in a vB "plugin".
>>     
>
> Well vBulletin doesn't require an _extremely_ extensive hack at the
> source (just look at the diff between it and vanilla phpBB to see what I
> mean - it's a fuckin huge hack) to implement something as simple as
> subforums: it prefers to have them part of the package from the get-go.
>
>
>   
>> "reported posts, built-in warnings & infractions system" Well, sorry
>> to burst your bubble, but phpBB3 has this also.
>>     
>
> Not anywhere near as usable or strong. I'm not going to go off on a
> tangent here, but I'm sure if you looked around the vB forums, there's a
> post detailing some of the many features vB's Warnings and Infractions
> system has to offer that just make it absolutely amazing.
>
>   
>> And for those who administrate the boards, phpBB3's permission and
>> overall ACP is just a better system. It's a lot less confusing, and a
>> lot better organized.
>>     
>
> I disagree. phpBB3 sets _every_ single thing differently.
>
> vBulletin, on the other hand, uses a very scalar system that's based on
> the concept of inheritance from the parent forum or category which is a
> lot more maintainable, and if thought about for a few seconds, actually
> makes a lot more sense. The cases where it would be a nuisance are
> minimal at best (How often would you _actually_ want a person to be a
> moderator of a given forum but not one of its subforums? Subforums are
> usually derivatives of the parent forum, so isn't the moderator in this
> hypothetical situation already dealing with the same topic range of
> posts?)
>
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>
>
>   

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