[Compcomm] [Re: The Next Step]

[RYX]

Am Mittwoch, den 25.04.2007, 16:35 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 13:57 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > Taking the risk to repeat myself, I will quote myself :D ... Either my
> > previous mail didn't make it through or this is another case of simply
> > ignoring important arguments in favor of a salesman-show ...
> 
> Because yours and Alex's posts are so much better than a
> "salesman-show"?
No, because you do nothing but sum up the reasons why vB is "better"
than phpBB - which is obvious, it is a commercial product. You have no
real reason why we need vB instead of phpBB, what benefits it really
gives us over phpBB and why we just can't go with an open-source
solution. 

> 
> > What benefit does it give ANYONE, if the forum-software is NOT chosen in
> > a way to ensure we have people working on it and help improving it?
> 
> You seem to be of the belief that you and Alex would be completely
> incapable in all forms of helping to maintain the vBulletin forum.
> 
> That's not true at all.
As my following statement should make clear - I don't want to be (or
become) capable of managing a proprietary piece of software I am not
using otherwise. This has indeed nothing to do with incapability, more
with reasonable unwillingess.

> 
> > Why is it so difficult to let the professionals, long time
> > web-developers and php-coders who are offering to "care and code" (and
> > already proved to be able to do so in form of the beryl/compiz forums)
> > let have the say in this decisison - especially since they agree with
> > the community's majority-vote?
> 
> Because your word as a web developer and a php coder is automatically
> more pertinent and relevant than my word as a web developer and
> php-coder (in addition to my long and varied experience with the forum
> softwares in question)?
This is the first time you mention to be a web-developer and php-coder.
But still, it's one dev and one admin against the rest of devs and the
rest of the community - still seems not really convincing to me.

> 
> > What benefit does it give the community (or anyone) if the
> > forum-software is chosen in a way that all professional web-devs refuse
> > to work on it because it is not free and open? Will, are you alone going
> > to write plugins, create the themes, integrate the forum with the rest
> > of the site - whenever there are any things to do? I doubt.
> 
> Writing plugins is unnecessary for a rather large margin of tasks.
> There's a whole site that works in conjunction with vBulletin called
> vBulletin.org where vB users post plugins.
> 
> As for theming vBulletin, it's not difficult and it's not as if we'll be
> changing the theme every week.
Can you promise that? It looks like we are going to create a whole new
project every 4 months throughout this year ... correct me if I am
wrong, but that's the plan afaik.

> 
> > Again: This has _nothing_ to do with emotion - it is pure logic. I don't
> > see the smallest reason or motivation to work on a commercial piece of
> > software if I don't get a cent paid for it and I won't be able to re-use
> > what I learned.
> 
> Some of us think that doing the best thing for the project and giving
> our time is enough.
Yes, of course - some of us are the new messiah :D :D ... It would be
wonderful if those "some of us" wouldn't think they have the ultimate
knowledge of what is "the best thing" - even though the whole rest of
the community thinks different.

> 
> > If I work on free software, I feel good to just
> > contribute without getting paid and learn a lot.
> 
> You can learn from closed source software too. I learned a lot about web
> design with Photoshop.
That's like comparing a bottle of milk with a leather-jacket ... You
learned about the topic in general - that has nothing to do with
Photoshop. You can't work on Photoshop's sourcecode and can't learn how
the cool plugins and effects are coded. You will not be able to port the
layer-styles system from PS to the gimp.

Also you seem to think I see commercial software as "the devil" - that's
nonsense. I just use open-source whenever possible, even if it means
that I have to do some tweaking or wait a while until everything works
correctly. That's the spirit of open-source. We are not running a
company here, we are a free project - don't forget that.

> 
> > That's maybe not
> > understandable for non-developers, otherwise we wouldn't have to argue
> > about something so obvious ...
> 
> You seem to have blatantly ignored where I've not only ran and
> maintained more sites than I could remember to list, but that you're not
> the only person who knows anything about PHP on this Mailing List.
I never said that. I only said that phpBB works well and there is no
need to use closed-source software (yes, irony - php is never closed
source and so on ... you know what I mean).

> 
> > (Sorry for repeating me but this discussion is done with a very false
> > argumentation - but of course, only the OSS-fans are acting emotional
> > and for their own morality ;) ...)
> 
> Requesting a decision sans moral interference is not a stance based in
> morality.
Everything is based on some kind of morality. Or would you recommend
producing t-shirts in chinese sweatshops because it is cheaper - no
matter if they let 10 year old children work 14 hours a day for 2$ a
month?

Open-source has a lot to do with idealism and loyalty to its idea - you
can't just ignore that, it's a part of the whole.

> 
> As for false argumentation... anyone has yet to actually show where
> phpBB3 is technically superior to vBulletin in terms of maintainability,
> security, or extensibility.
This proves that you absolutely don't get the point in what everyone
(Quinn, cyberorg, nesl247, ...) is trying to say. Nobody said that phpBB
is superior or better - most likely it isn't, because it is a free
project without big money. But it is absolutely ok for us and our needs.
We have no need for any more features than phpBB (or other
OSS-alternatives) can provide, you are the only one who likes and
promotes vBulletin.


> 
> > Rico
> > 
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