[Compcomm] [Re: The Next Step]

[RYX]

Am Mittwoch, den 25.04.2007, 20:00 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 23:53 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, den 25.04.2007, 16:35 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> > > On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 13:57 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > > Taking the risk to repeat myself, I will quote myself :D ... Either my
> > > > previous mail didn't make it through or this is another case of simply
> > > > ignoring important arguments in favor of a salesman-show ...
> > > 
> > > Because yours and Alex's posts are so much better than a
> > > "salesman-show"?
> > No, because you do nothing but sum up the reasons why vB is "better"
> > than phpBB - which is obvious, it is a commercial product. You have no
> > real reason why we need vB instead of phpBB, what benefits it really
> > gives us over phpBB and why we just can't go with an open-source
> > solution. 
> 
> Why must it be an "open-source solution"? Why can't we make this
> decision without mucking about in personal ideologies, or are we going
> to be so close-minded (that same thing we accuse companies of) as to be
> all-or-nothing open-source zealots?
> 
> Zealotry _is_ detrimental.
> 
> > > 
> > > > What benefit does it give ANYONE, if the forum-software is NOT chosen in
> > > > a way to ensure we have people working on it and help improving it?
> > > 
> > > You seem to be of the belief that you and Alex would be completely
> > > incapable in all forms of helping to maintain the vBulletin forum.
> > > 
> > > That's not true at all.
> > As my following statement should make clear - I don't want to be (or
> > become) capable of managing a proprietary piece of software I am not
> > using otherwise. This has indeed nothing to do with incapability, more
> > with reasonable unwillingess.
> 
> Sounds like zealotry to me.
> 
> > > 
> > > > Why is it so difficult to let the professionals, long time
> > > > web-developers and php-coders who are offering to "care and code" (and
> > > > already proved to be able to do so in form of the beryl/compiz forums)
> > > > let have the say in this decisison - especially since they agree with
> > > > the community's majority-vote?
> > > 
> > > Because your word as a web developer and a php coder is automatically
> > > more pertinent and relevant than my word as a web developer and
> > > php-coder (in addition to my long and varied experience with the forum
> > > softwares in question)?
> > This is the first time you mention to be a web-developer and php-coder.
> > But still, it's one dev and one admin against the rest of devs and the
> > rest of the community - still seems not really convincing to me.
> 
> The only other developers are... you and Alex. Of the two of you, the
> only one with _any_ experience with more than one forum software is
> Alex. So, I count 1 against 1.
So you think because I never used a wider range of forum-software my
voice is "unworthy" - you must be kidding. If you think I have to
use/look at such software more than once to be able to get a valid
impression of it then you are definetly no php-coder ...

> 
> And no, it is not the first time I've mentioned that. I don't know how
> "I've owned, maintained, and administrated a wide variety of forums on
> various software, including phpBB2, phpBB3 ..." didn't make it clear
> that I know what I'm doing in regards to this. "Maintaining" is an
> especially clear flag about it.
Yes, you mentiioned that. But maintaining, owning, and administrating
doesn't automatically make you a php-coder - those three things could be
done by my grandma as well. That is why I assumed you are no php-coder.

> 
> > > 
> > > > What benefit does it give the community (or anyone) if the
> > > > forum-software is chosen in a way that all professional web-devs refuse
> > > > to work on it because it is not free and open? Will, are you alone going
> > > > to write plugins, create the themes, integrate the forum with the rest
> > > > of the site - whenever there are any things to do? I doubt.
> > > 
> > > Writing plugins is unnecessary for a rather large margin of tasks.
> > > There's a whole site that works in conjunction with vBulletin called
> > > vBulletin.org where vB users post plugins.
> > > 
> > > As for theming vBulletin, it's not difficult and it's not as if we'll be
> > > changing the theme every week.
> > Can you promise that? It looks like we are going to create a whole new
> > project every 4 months throughout this year ... correct me if I am
> > wrong, but that's the plan afaik.
> 
> Being snarky won't get much done in any of the current or "future"
> projects.
The whole shit would be ready since a week if not suddenly everyone
would have to be the king. Guillaume and I were close to get going - but
then "some of us" decided to change the route we agreed on for months.

> 
> > > 
> > > > Again: This has _nothing_ to do with emotion - it is pure logic. I don't
> > > > see the smallest reason or motivation to work on a commercial piece of
> > > > software if I don't get a cent paid for it and I won't be able to re-use
> > > > what I learned.
> > > 
> > > Some of us think that doing the best thing for the project and giving
> > > our time is enough.
> > Yes, of course - some of us are the new messiah :D :D ... It would be
> > wonderful if those "some of us" wouldn't think they have the ultimate
> > knowledge of what is "the best thing" - even though the whole rest of
> > the community thinks different.
> 
> It'd be awesome if "some of us" would not use an extremely unapplicable
> but untruthful hyperbole to even try to make a point.
> 
> It'd also be awesome if "some of us" knew what the word 'compromise'
> means.
> 
> It'd be even more awesome if "some of us" will realize that of anyone on
> the mailing list, they've been the least open to any change, and have
> been the most vocal in regards to "the way things must be".
> 
> Frankly, Rico, whereas I've no qualms working with Alex, and Guillame,
> and the others, from day 1, it has seemed to me that you have some
> opinion that has led you to believe that in regards to the management of
> the web-based assets of this project, that it is Your Way or the
> Highway.
I expressed to several beryl-devs that I really look forward to work
with them, I have personally agreed with Guillaume to get things going -
a week ago. That was shortly before you and Jeff decided to do things
your own way - since that day my motivation is gone ...

If you have a close look at how much work Mike and I have put into
reviving compiz and giving it back some perspective, you maybe
understand why I will not silently sit here and watch things getting
worse and worse. What did you do for compiz that you think your opinion
is so much better than mine?

Did you contribute anything visible to the whole project? "Your Way or
the Highway" would exactly apply to yourself as well, so better keep the
ball low ...

> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > > If I work on free software, I feel good to just
> > > > contribute without getting paid and learn a lot.
> > > 
> > > You can learn from closed source software too. I learned a lot about web
> > > design with Photoshop.
> > That's like comparing a bottle of milk with a leather-jacket ... You
> > learned about the topic in general - that has nothing to do with
> > Photoshop. You can't work on Photoshop's sourcecode and can't learn how
> > the cool plugins and effects are coded. You will not be able to port the
> > layer-styles system from PS to the gimp.
> 
> Well you can look at the vBulletin source code too. It just so happens
> you can't take what they've written and use it to write your own
> software.
> 
> > Also you seem to think I see commercial software as "the devil" - that's
> > nonsense.
> 
> No it's not. You refused to work on a proprietary software earlier based
> on nothing but the fact that it's not open-source. That's zealotry.
You are obviously not old enough to understand what it means to have a
scope or focus in your daily work. If I learn to work with software I
don't use otherwise I just waste my time ... 

> 
> > I just use open-source whenever possible, even if it means
> > that I have to do some tweaking or wait a while until everything works
> > correctly. 
> 
> I'm a fan of pragmatism, myself.
It's no pragmatism. It's open-minded - that is a huge difference you
don't seem to be aware of.

> 
> > That's the spirit of open-source. We are not running a
> > company here, we are a free project - don't forget that.
> 
> I'm a fan of pragmatism here. We're a project. We have needs. We pick
> the software that satisfies them best - not the software we hope will
> one day satisfy them best.
I guess you meant _you_ have needs. Nobody else but you. Nobody else
ever tried to enforce vBulletin the way you do. Do you get paid for
promoting them?

> 
> > > 
> > > > That's maybe not
> > > > understandable for non-developers, otherwise we wouldn't have to argue
> > > > about something so obvious ...
> > > 
> > > You seem to have blatantly ignored where I've not only ran and
> > > maintained more sites than I could remember to list, but that you're not
> > > the only person who knows anything about PHP on this Mailing List.
> > I never said that. I only said that phpBB works well and there is no
> > need to use closed-source software (yes, irony - php is never closed
> > source and so on ... you know what I mean).
> 
> What you've done is try to force your personal ideologies into the lives
> of every current and future Compiz and Beryl forum poster as a result.
If you think that your solution is so much less idealistic ...

> 
> > > 
> > > > (Sorry for repeating me but this discussion is done with a very false
> > > > argumentation - but of course, only the OSS-fans are acting emotional
> > > > and for their own morality ;) ...)
> > > 
> > > Requesting a decision sans moral interference is not a stance based in
> > > morality.
> > Everything is based on some kind of morality. Or would you recommend
> > producing t-shirts in chinese sweatshops because it is cheaper - no
> > matter if they let 10 year old children work 14 hours a day for 2$ a
> > month?
> 
> Logically speaking, outsourcing production in such a way only makes
> sense. Realistically speaking, your company's public relations would be
> entirely awful among the industrialized world, and as such, your sales
> would suffer. For the same amount of money you make by being able to pay
> less, you'd lose in actual customers (and more).
Go and tell that Nike, Puma, Adidas & co ... but that's off-topic.

> 
> > Open-source has a lot to do with idealism and loyalty to its idea - you
> > can't just ignore that, it's a part of the whole.
> 
> I'm not disloyal to open-source software. There is room in the
> open-source software scene for a pragmatic approach to things. It's just
> that zealots like to talk till they get blue in the face trying to
> convince everyone that there's only one way to support open-source
> software. Sounds pretty close-minded rather than idealistic to me.
Again - what did _you_ do (except talking)?

> 
> > > 
> > > As for false argumentation... anyone has yet to actually show where
> > > phpBB3 is technically superior to vBulletin in terms of maintainability,
> > > security, or extensibility.
> > This proves that you absolutely don't get the point in what everyone
> > (Quinn, cyberorg, nesl247, ...) is trying to say. Nobody said that phpBB
> > is superior or better - most likely it isn't, because it is a free
> > project without big money. But it is absolutely ok for us and our needs.
> 
> I seem to be the only who has made any arguments about the actual needs
> of the community. They've all said that phpBB fills the site's needs,
> but I've argued many cases in which it is not. What have they offered to
> refute it other than more personal ideologies?
So you still seem to not realize that your are on a pure ego-trip. Who
cares about what is better if he doesn't need it? It is a stupid
approach to throw in as much features as you can get, even though you
don't need a single one of them.

> 
> > We have no need for any more features than phpBB (or other
> > OSS-alternatives) can provide, you are the only one who likes and
> > promotes vBulletin.
> 
> By that logic, we have no need for a graphical server so we might as
> well stop using X11 and just go back to a CLI.
Again a pretty stupid comparison. If you see sense in that - do it.
That's definetly totally away from what I said and again utilizing the
fact that I can't be as eloquent in english as I maybe could be in
german.

> 
> _______________________________________________
> CompComm mailing list
> CompComm at Rock3d.org
> http://www.ubaight.com/mailman/listinfo/compcomm